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Comment Archives: Stories: News+Opinion: Public Policy LTD.

Re: “Christie and Paul make concessions to the anti-vax crowd

"How many kids have we lost to measles this year? "
Probably none as almost all have been vaccinated.

Yes. It's an easy and obvious choice that all rational people already undertake voluntarily. There is no good to come of forcing it upon everyone just to save a tiny insignificant number of people from contracting the measles each year, most of whom are stupid anti-vaxxers in the first place.

0 of 2 people like this.
Posted by Fish Pimp on February 12, 2015 at 8:34 PM

Re: “Christie and Paul make concessions to the anti-vax crowd

"We've already been down the "government must keep us safe at all costs" route, and yes, the reality is frightening. It involves TSA agents finger raping grandmas and handicapped kids at the airport and random people being imprisoned and tortured based on heresay and without legal due process."

Exactly.

0 of 3 people like this.
Posted by Fish Pimp on February 12, 2015 at 7:47 PM

Re: “Christie and Paul make concessions to the anti-vax crowd

Brew, I have no problem with shaming but I think it's now called bullying and frowned upon.

Shame and guilt are the most powerful societal controls. Chris Christie's fat ass certainly needs some shaming. He's one after-dinner mint away from exploding. "It's waffer, thin."

1 of 5 people like this.
Posted by Fish Pimp on February 12, 2015 at 7:44 PM

Re: “Christie and Paul make concessions to the anti-vax crowd

The Hysterical People are hysterical and emotional and thus logic and reason are difficult for Hysterical AlexM to grasp. "Altering your body" is not a joke term. Stop changing the premise to suit an argument you would rather have, Hysterical AlexM.

Every example Hysterical AlexM suggests is some form of action that is not required by the government. The government doesn't force you to get behind a wheel of a car. The government doesn't force you to travel outside of the US. The government doesn't force you to work driving a truck or as a public aid worker. We have a volunteer Army. While I don't know this for a fact, I'm fairly certain everyone who contracted Ebola consented to medical treatment.

You scoff at government experimentation, yet ignore or fail to get the reference to experiments with LSD. You might also google the Tuskegee Study to inform yourself of what the US Public Health Service has already done.

Because the government restricts driving privileges based on alcohol consumption does not mean that the government is restricting alcohol consumption. You can sit in your home and legally consume any amount of alcohol that you wish. Until death. It's your choice. And that choice kills more people every year than the measles.

An obvious and often discussed example of altering your body is forced castration for rapists. Does the government have the right to cut your dick off Hysterical AlexM? Clearly you don't understand enough about biology to understand what happens during immunization. Take my word for the fact that something happens to make you immune. Also, take my word for the fact that something is harmed and dies to make you unpreggers, Hysterical AlexM. Have the guts to face the consequence of that choice you defend, man.

So, you still have not provided a single example of the government forcing people to alter their bodies despite repeatedly claiming that it happens all the time.

"But get the fck out of my society while you do it"

I'm not sure who the fuck you think made you King. I sure as fuck didn't vote for you, Hysterical AlexM. You don't get to trade away my civil rights because you are a coward. I'm happy the way things are. It is you, Hysterical AlexM who must run away to Mississippi or West Virginia, which have no exceptions, if you think there are too many cooties here in South Carolina.

2 of 5 people like this.
Posted by Fish Pimp on February 12, 2015 at 7:37 PM

Re: “Christie and Paul make concessions to the anti-vax crowd

"How many kids have we lost to measles this year? "
Probably none as almost all have been vaccinated.

4 of 4 people like this.
Posted by TROLLSLAYER on February 12, 2015 at 7:25 PM

Re: “Christie and Paul make concessions to the anti-vax crowd

It is amazing that everyone commenting on Matt Catastrophe's article have missed the most ignorant assertions made in the piece:

1. The outbreak of measles, and other viruses that were virtually eliminated in the US, have been re-introduced here by undocumented (illegal) aliens from 3rd world hellholes. That is one of the meanings of "undocumented"; they have no records to indicate their disease or vaccination history. This is why the measles outbreak initially started in an area of the country that has had a huge influx of illegal immigrant children over the past two years. Same with the new strains of influenza that have "mysteriously" migrated from Central and South America in the last year and a half.

2. I grew up in the 1960's and 1970's and raised a family in the 1980's and 1990's. The vast majority of people that opted out of vaccinations were New Age, communitarian, back-to-the-land types. I know because I traveled in those circles back in the day. Most of the parents of the people that have been infected by these "undocumented viruses" are left wing true believers, not Republicans, as Mr. Catastrophe contends (many of the infected children reside in Marin County, CA). As usual, he lets his bankrupt ideology interfere with his "truthiness."

The rest of you may now continue your straw man arguments concerning how libertarians/conservatives are trumpeting individual rights over the common good.

3 of 7 people like this.
Posted by Rohry on February 12, 2015 at 7:08 PM

Re: “Christie and Paul make concessions to the anti-vax crowd

"If we go down the "government must keep us safe at all costs" route then we eventually end up all locked up in rubber rooms, probably eating soylent green, for our own good. Otherwise we might hurt others, or ourselves. Dear me, how frightening!"

Your hyperbole is ridiculous and you should feel bad. We've already been down the "government must keep us safe at all costs" route, and yes, the reality is frightening. It involves TSA agents finger raping grandmas and handicapped kids at the airport and random people being imprisoned and tortured based on heresay and without legal due process.

2 of 2 people like this.
Posted by Ron Liberte on February 12, 2015 at 4:56 PM

Re: “Christie and Paul make concessions to the anti-vax crowd

"I'm usually in disagreement with Fish Pimp, but this time he's right.

If we go down the "government must keep us safe at all costs" route then we eventually end up all locked up in rubber rooms, probably eating soylent green, for our own good. Otherwise we might hurt others, or ourselves. Dear me, how frightening!

Vaccinations seem like an obviously good choice and my family is vaccinated.

But ultimately the government's authority devolves to men with guns. Are we going to have cops drag people out their homes and inject them? I fucking hope not!

Maybe we could just say they don't have to be vaccinated, but they are never allowed out their front door "for public safety" until they are?"

The government's authority is a lot more than just "men with guns". There are a lot of softer, more subtle ways to enforce vaccination. Such as eliminating all non-medical exemptions from public school vaccination requirements. I think that's quite a long ways away from an authoritarian regime, and is still effective. Requiring private schools to enforce vaccination requirements in order to be accredited is also not a very drastic step. Both options would go a long way towards preventing unnecessary pain and suffering on the majority of people just because some assclown is too stupid to understand how science works without infringing on anyone's rights in the least.

Same with hospitals and doctors' offices. Hospitals receiving public funds should require anyone wishing to obtain treatment to have had their vaccination. A hospital contains a huge concentration of people that are at an especially high risk of Measles, and people for whom a measles infection could easily prove deadly. Private doctors and hospitals could treat whomever they want, I guess, but they should also have to publicly and clearly disclose that they treat non-vaccinated patients, so that those of us with some common sense could know to steer clear.

Oh, and I just thought of another place where the government requires "altering your body" - public health workers. Public health workers are required to be current on all immunizations or lose their jobs/have their licenses suspended. No one considers this tyrannical (well, no one who isn't a raving lunatic, anyway).

I don't expect the government to keep us 100% from any and all potential dangers at the cost of fundamental liberties. I DO expect the government to do everything in its power to minimize the chance of diseases which are essentially extinct in the developed world like measles, mumps, polio, and smallpox coming back. Especially when all it takes to prevent it is $5 and 5 minutes.

4 of 4 people like this.
Posted by AlexM on February 12, 2015 at 3:48 PM

Re: “Christie and Paul make concessions to the anti-vax crowd

"The gov. makes its military and civilians travelling to certain countries get vaccinated because they don't want you bringing back smallpox. I really expect more out of Rand Paul...the doctor, but that's my fault."

He is only a doctor by degree. I agree with you that these should be mandatory. It is a matter of public health, and allowing religious or idealogical exceptions only destroys heard immunity. The only people that shouldn't be immunized, are the people with verifiable medical issues. However, the logistics of making it a requirement are quite difficult. You would have to be very strict with visitors from other countries, and I don't think that would work. I think the scientific and medical community needs to start shaming antivaxxers. If it doesn't make logistical sense to regulate it, push people into doing the right thing.

3 of 3 people like this.
Posted by brewengineer on February 12, 2015 at 12:19 PM

Re: “Christie and Paul make concessions to the anti-vax crowd

FishPimp - "Hysterical AlexM, please cite one example of the government forcing me to alter my body. You build a straw man around "restrict people from making choices which harm others" instead of addressing my point, Hysterical AlexM."

Quarantine and medical treatment for possible ebola patients. It happened just a few months ago. I can see how you might not remember, as the libertarian position is hardly known for its long memory or reliance on facts. You can also be required to wear corrective lenses while driving, and be fined/have your license suspended if you don't. In many fields, truck driving for example, you are required to take annual physicals and take all prescribed medication to work.

In all of these cases, not "altering your body" (which, by the way, is a joke term that makes me feel like you know nothing about vaccination - getting a Measles vaccine doesn't "alter your body" any more than getting the Measles does) leads to a situation where you become a credible risk to the people around you. Vaccines are the same - if you or your children are not vaccinated, you are a real and serious risk to the health of those around you. You become a vector for disease transmission, and aid in the breakdown of herd immunity.

"Restricting choices which harm others" isn't at all a straw man, it is the heart of the argument. That's the entire point. You either don't understand what "straw man" means, or you don't understand the argument we're having.

"You can require all of those tyrannical things, Hysterical AlexM. And you can build concentration camps for the anti-vaxxers, as you say. And if they got past the Supreme Court, the same thing will work for requiring birth control as a condition of school admission. And the flu shot. And Experimental Sample#41B which might prevent lice. Please report any strange hallucinations. "

Yes, you're right. If we require vaccinations (something that has been required in public schools since the 60's, by the way), it will totally lead to a slippery slope where next thing you know your children will become nothing but test bodies for the radical BIG PHARMA agenda! OOGA BOOGA! The fact that you can still find it in you to call others hysterical after comments like this make me worry about your sanity.

"Hell, I bet it would even work for limiting alcohol and tobacco. No doubt both Catastrophe and Haire would have already reached the legally allowable limit on alcohol consumption for the evening. You two are cutoff by order of the Nanny State! Otherwise, Hysterical AlexM will take away your access to healthcare."

We already limit alcohol and tobacco, you twit. You can't drive drunk. A situation in which your use of alcohol can harm others has been legislatively restricted. You also can't smoke indoors. Again, a situation where your choices harm others has been restricted through legislation.

"How many kids have we lost to measles this year? How many have we lost to guns? How many to abortions? Which of these legal choices is statistically the biggest preventable threat to the collective body? Not measles, Hysterical AlexM."

To Measles this year? I think 2 or 3? Don't have time to look for exact numbers. But given that until a few years ago, Measles was a disease that had been effectively eradicated in the US, and there were 139 cases in 2014, and vaccination rates are going DOWN and not up, that's a big problem.

Not sure what your point is about guns. I'm actually in favor of strict gun control. You seem to be also, since you're saying that gun deaths are too high.

I am happy to say, however, that we have lost no children to abortion, ever. Not a single child has died from abortion (ok, probably not true, I'm sure there are plenty of cases of children GETTING abortions that may have resulted in death, but they are still very few and far between, and generally happen in unregulated abortions).

Of those three things, a child is much more likely to die from gun violence, followed by measles, followed by abortions. But while gun deaths are dropping, measles outbreaks and deaths are increasing.

"Nobody says what goes into my body but me. It is the basis of freedom. When you violate the body, there is no longer the sense of self. There is only the Borg. You have been assimilated into the collective and the collective knows best."

That's fine. You want to live as an unassailable island of self-reliance? Go ahead. But get the fck out of my society while you do it. Our laws violate and restrict the body all the time, when there is a compelling public safety case. Don't like it? You're welcome to leave society and go somewhere where your stupidity doesn't put me at risk.

4 of 5 people like this.
Posted by AlexM on February 12, 2015 at 11:37 AM

Re: “Christie and Paul make concessions to the anti-vax crowd

The government doesn't give us a choice on running red lights, on which side of the road to drive, or whether or not buildings are up to fire codes. Why is it ok to let a few people bring back the measles, polio, and the plague all out of an irrational fear? There's a reason why 102 infected people out of the 300+ million people that live in the US, is a big deal. The disease is nearly gone in major countries.
The gov. makes its military and civilians travelling to certain countries get vaccinated because they don't want you bringing back smallpox. I really expect more out of Rand Paul...the doctor, but that's my fault.

6 of 7 people like this.
Posted by wolverine on February 12, 2015 at 9:28 AM

Re: “Christie and Paul make concessions to the anti-vax crowd

I'm usually in disagreement with Fish Pimp, but this time he's right.

If we go down the "government must keep us safe at all costs" route then we eventually end up all locked up in rubber rooms, probably eating soylent green, for our own good. Otherwise we might hurt others, or ourselves. Dear me, how frightening!

Vaccinations seem like an obviously good choice and my family is vaccinated.

But ultimately the government's authority devolves to men with guns. Are we going to have cops drag people out their homes and inject them? I fucking hope not!

Maybe we could just say they don't have to be vaccinated, but they are never allowed out their front door "for public safety" until they are?

1 of 6 people like this.
Posted by Cid95 on February 12, 2015 at 3:24 AM

Re: “Christie and Paul make concessions to the anti-vax crowd

I've been telling you people that I can see the future. I replied to Ron's comment before he even made it.

0 of 5 people like this.
Posted by Fish Pimp on February 11, 2015 at 10:08 PM

Re: “Christie and Paul make concessions to the anti-vax crowd

"Why are you belittling "choice"? I can see why you might be afraid to use the "h" word."

The other side of that coin is the ideological inconsistency of two loudmouth assholes who supposedly want to keep government out of personal choices until it comes to pregnant women's healthcare, homosexuals wanting to marry, people wanting to smoke weed, etc.

5 of 6 people like this.
Posted by Ron Liberte on February 11, 2015 at 9:56 PM

Re: “Christie and Paul make concessions to the anti-vax crowd

Yes. The consistent positions are freedom (anti-vaxxer and pro-choice) OR government control (forced vaccinations and Pro-life).

1 of 4 people like this.
Posted by Fish Pimp on February 11, 2015 at 9:56 PM

Re: “Christie and Paul make concessions to the anti-vax crowd

I would be interested in an informed opinion about the ability of the state to force people to take mental health prescriptions. I would guess that the state must first declare the person incompetent before they can force the drugs on them.

I've got an idea. Let's round up all the homeless and force them to take their medication for paranoid schizophrenia. Such a law will certainly clean up the intersections.

2 of 7 people like this.
Posted by Fish Pimp on February 11, 2015 at 9:39 PM

Re: “Christie and Paul make concessions to the anti-vax crowd

Hysterical AlexM, please cite one example of the government forcing me to alter my body. You build a straw man around "restrict people from making choices which harm others" instead of addressing my point, Hysterical AlexM.

You can require all of those tyrannical things, Hysterical AlexM. And you can build concentration camps for the anti-vaxxers, as you say. And if they got past the Supreme Court, the same thing will work for requiring birth control as a condition of school admission. And the flu shot. And Experimental Sample#41B which might prevent lice. Please report any strange hallucinations.

Hell, I bet it would even work for limiting alcohol and tobacco. No doubt both Catastrophe and Haire would have already reached the legally allowable limit on alcohol consumption for the evening. You two are cutoff by order of the Nanny State! Otherwise, Hysterical AlexM will take away your access to healthcare.

How many kids have we lost to measles this year? How many have we lost to guns? How many to abortions? Which of these legal choices is statistically the biggest preventable threat to the collective body? Not measles, Hysterical AlexM.

Nobody says what goes into my body but me. It is the basis of freedom. When you violate the body, there is no longer the sense of self. There is only the Borg. You have been assimilated into the collective and the collective knows best.

2 of 9 people like this.
Posted by Fish Pimp on February 11, 2015 at 8:58 PM

Re: “Christie and Paul make concessions to the anti-vax crowd

You can use the government to force people to alter their body, provided that the reasons for doing so outweigh the freedoms being curtailed. In fact, we use the power of the government to restrict people from making choices which harm others all the time. That is, at its essence, exactly what government is - a collective body by which we limit individual freedoms when they conflict with public safety. So "you cannot use the power of the government to force citizens to alter their bodies" is a stupid point - things like this is exactly why the government exists, and there's not a single good reason why altering your body should be exempt or held to some imaginary higher standard.

As far as what you can do, there are plenty of perfectly reasonable legislative actions you can take. For example, eliminating any non-medical exemptions from public school vaccination requirements (these are almost entirely the cause for the Measles outbreak - parents using the religious exemption to avoid vaccinating their kids while still sending them to public school). You can also require all private schools to require vaccinations if they are to keep their status as an accredited or otherwise recognized private school. You can require vaccination as a condition for being able to visit a hospital or doctor's office. You can legislate that not getting your children vaccinated without a medical exemption constitutes child abuse. You could require proof of vaccination as a condition for receiving any kind of government service.

None of these suggestions are terribly over-reaching, and all would go a long way towards eliminating the problem. At worst, they will isolate anti-vaxxers to remote compounds far away from those of us who aren't insane.

6 of 9 people like this.
Posted by AlexM on February 11, 2015 at 6:32 PM

Re: “Christie and Paul make concessions to the anti-vax crowd

The Hysterical People, whipped into a media frenzy over the measles, offer no suggestions as to the remedy for this supposed problem of anti-vaxxers. Must we all be marched to Dr. Mengele's offices at gunpoint to have things injected into our bodies by the government? Why are you belittling "choice"? I can see why you might be afraid to use the "h" word.

The laws already prohibit children who are not vaccinated from attending public schools. If you want to take away all exceptions, I'm fine with that, but they still have the choice of home school and private schools with no immunization requirements.

The effectiveness of the vaccines is enough to make all sensible people choose to get vaccinated. You cannot legislate away stupidity and you cannot use the power of the government to force citizens to alter their bodies. Thus, about 8% of the population will always remain unvaccinated.

Rand Paul has withered in the intense hurricane of Hysterical People, however he originally charted the proper course. Had he not decided to pander to the anti-vaxxers with the junk science, his position would have been easily defensible.

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Posted by Fish Pimp on February 11, 2015 at 5:56 PM

Re: “Gov. Haley's plan to fix state highways is a rubber-necking mess

I'm so glad you could cut and paste something from the home of "trickle down" economics, the University of Chicago School of Economics. I mean they wouldn't be doing biased research, would they Arty?

Posted by Muskie on February 10, 2015 at 12:49 PM
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