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Comment Archives: Stories: News+Opinion: Southern Avenger

Re: “Government Fundamentalists

Ugg - you are confusing TARP with the stimulus. TARP was used as the "bailout" for the banking and investment groups. It was also devised and implemented by the Bush administration, not Obama's. The stimulus was intended to create jobs where none existed. The problem is that there were not enough people with real business experience involved in the process, only politicians, professors, and political appointees, which is usually the case. The only "success" so far was to take over GM and give partial ownership to the union. If that happened in another country, we would call it Venezuela.

Sark professes socialism. He sees all endeavors to be divided even steven or by majority rule by the workers. Sounds okay on paper, but is a total failure through history. People in socialist countries generally live equally miserable lives and never excel to anything. Why should they? They get the same as everyone else no matter what. The premise of workers running companies is equally baffling. Sure, there are examples of successful enterprises, but on a large scale, our workforce is basically incompetent, selfish, and petty. Perhaps you have not really spent much time in the actual workforce. You certainly have not managed workers. There must always be someone to make decisions. Consensus and voting only works in single large issues that are visited very, very infrequently.

Capitalism and representative government are the best man has devised to this point, but the people must hold each of their leaders to higher standards. Government should be large enough to assist, but not to seize. The more government grows and controls, the less the people will feel they can do without it. Thus the ideals of the Democratic Party of today.

Posted by LuvURcountry on October 28, 2010 at 1:44 PM

Re: “Government Fundamentalists

Many honest sincere and well meaning people hate the Obama stimulas, they think it's only intention was to create job. The truth of the matter is, our business, jobs, ownership through owed debt, hourly functioning of products neccessary to sustain life. In other words,(everyone of us)our every day needs for survival was in danger of tumbling ike a house of cards, not just shelter for home owners who were in trouble.
Visualize America as a large ship on the planet earth. Now visulize the top financial engines powering this ship. Now visulize many holes being put into theis ship leaking water on those powerful engins running american and flooding the ship. If you are smart enough to understand this so far, you will see the danger of this ship becoming flooded to the extent of sinking like the economy of the late 1929 into the 30's-----We all look at things different with different interest. I hope some of you will understand the stimulas was really intended to keep the ship from sinking because of over productivity and sales of homes, vehicle and every other commody brought about by the abuse of credit by banks, politicians of all parties, greedy buyers trying to speculate, hungry decent people trying to get into a home, greedy business men in general that were involved in every aspect of this upper exchange of wealth. Today, many working class people have no clue as to what took place in this money debacle and they are getting ready to vote--that may be another debacle. It's not the government fault. It's the fault of profiteers--domestic, international, business, freelancers, and people pushing their opinion who mean well but still have no clue as to what took place that brought down our financial system. The OIL COMPANIES, (have found out that capitalism operates under keynesian economics.)(this is where you borrow, buy and pay off later with inflation money)(this is the only thing that keeps the capitalistic system alive.)(without it working this way--capitalism would die according to John Maynard Keynes--they father of economics.) If you undrstand all this---You will understand that Obama is not a socialist but a realist. He is for making things work better for business and labor. Business will always tell you, their obligation is to the stock holders. (Incidentally---The reason for the high cost of oil is---VP Cheney probably told his OPEC buddies to raise oil prices, because our capitalistic system will ge giving you inflated dollars later on.)Thanks Cheney.
I say let us take care of everyone including, stock holder, workers, and retirees. There is enough for everyone.
One more thing;--look how many years you believe you still have to live---now figure how many months you have to live.
When you look at months to live it looks very close. We need to be sure life is good to everyone because it is really to short.

Posted by ugg on October 28, 2010 at 12:44 PM

Re: “Government Fundamentalists

When I was a young dude, greedy and full of piss an vinegar, I used to sell cars. I didn't have much religion then either.
It used to piss me off when some intelligent mom, dad, or some other person came in with their son to buy a car because it ruined my commision and lowered my income.
Now that I am more mature and found religion, I believe we all need governmet protection from the business sales beast the feed on innocent,naive customers. We are all either customers or suppliers.
My Daddy always says trust everyone but----Cut the cards. If you never played cards, you will not understand what I just said.

Posted by ugg on October 28, 2010 at 11:39 AM

Re: “Government Fundamentalists

I have talked to some of my friends who have a union pension besides Social Security. They tell me many pension funds are now owned by Companies like Predential, AIG and a lot of pension money was in the stock market. Many who put their pension money in the stock market lost it. Those are the sad cases. The Pensions in Predential, AIG and other similiar financial instutions were saved by the Obama stimulas that propped up these instutions and kept them out of bankruptsy. That senior pension money, if taken out of circulation, would have dragged the economy down tremendously.I sure appreciate the stimulas because at 77 years,I would be living on Social Security alone, and that is like poverty income.Thank God Bush did not succeed in putting Social Security into the Stock Market. When you vote--Think, don't touch Social Security.

Posted by ugg on October 28, 2010 at 11:27 AM

Re: “Rand Paul's Establishment Opponent Not Ready for 'Prime Time'

The number of libertarians in the tea party crowd is relatively few, so you're not proving anything (assuming those quotes are even real). For MOST tea partiers, individualism and liberty are fine, as long as gays don't want to get married, people don't want to smoke pot, gamble, or pay one another for sex. Which proves that their supposed commitment to individual rights and liberty is a farce.

The right wing in America today is not doctrinaire fascist, but they do share worrying similarities, like an aggressive, militaristic foreign policy, xenophobia, strident nationalism, and a creeping authoritarianism (witness the lack of outcry when Obama claims he can assassinate American citizens at will based solely on his say-so)

Posted by Sark on October 27, 2010 at 7:51 AM

Re: “Rand Paul's Establishment Opponent Not Ready for 'Prime Time'

Re: "Tea Partier's bent towards fascism" -- you think you can make any more of an absurd reach there? If we were to take a scientific poll on who is more thuggish, Rand Paul/Joe Miller supporters, or the typical government agents working for the TSA, IRS, DEA, etc., you know as well as I do what the results would be.

And who do you think most of those thuggish agents will be voting for? Surely not the libertarian-leaning candidates who favor more individual freedom! Fascists, by their nature, would rather bully and boss people around than let them do their own thing. That's what makes them fascists.

I'll leave you with a couple quotes:

“Anti-individualistic, the Fascist conception of life stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with those of the State, which stands for the conscience and the universal will of man as a historic entity. It is opposed to classical liberalism, which arose as a reaction to absolutism and exhausted its historical function when the State became the expression of the conscience and will of the people. Liberalism denied the State in the name of the individual; Fascism reasserts (the) rights of the State.”
— Benito Mussolini

“Individual rights are a lost cause, so there simply is no point in discussing them.”
— Heinrich Himmler

Posted by starchild on October 27, 2010 at 7:09 AM

Re: “Rand Paul's Establishment Opponent Not Ready for 'Prime Time'

No proof that a Conway supporter actually stomped on anyone. It really could have been anyone and it could have been accidental. Without evidence we'll never know otherwise. Video evidence exists that proves Paul supporters assaulted an American exercising free speech rights. Little else matters on the issue. Paul was ten feet away from the assualt. He waited until this morning to distance himself from the stomper, who happened to be his Bourbon County campaign chair. This is a very close association between the candidate and one of the perpetrators of the assault. Just like Joe Miller's hired miltia goons detaining a reporter at a middle school in Alaska, it is deeply emblematic of Tea Partier's bent towards fascism.

Posted by Charleston ExPat on October 26, 2010 at 5:18 PM

Re: “Rand Paul's Establishment Opponent Not Ready for 'Prime Time'

Chungster,

You asked, "How do you call get a job as a journalist with such an obvious bias?"

Two points you should consider:

One: Hunter's columns appear in the news/OPINION section of the CP.

Two: The same question could be asked of almost every "journalist" working in today's media culture.

I think you have confused "news journalist" with "opinion columnist". Whether it's O'Reilly or Schultz, Beck or Olbermann or Hannity or Maddow, these folks are paid to draw an audience using their opinions to construct a narrative. Ratings determine how successful they have been in that enterprise.

If you want the "news", you will need to investigate on your own. There are ample resources for doing so. When you have investigated both sides of an issue, you can then agree or disagree with the opinions professed by the opinion columnists.




Posted by I P Yuengling on October 26, 2010 at 2:41 PM

Re: “Rand Paul's Establishment Opponent Not Ready for 'Prime Time'

How do you call get a job as a journalist with such an obvious bias? It appears that you get to travel with the candidate gathering info to write a book and make no attempt to report news. This is a newspaper website, right? This type of writing does little if anything to help Paul (as I suspect you do) or the political system. I think it's fair to say that most people have serious issues with the status quo. This is just grandstanding and blind support.

Posted by chungster on October 26, 2010 at 1:56 PM

Re: “Rand Paul's Establishment Opponent Not Ready for 'Prime Time'

Yes, because Paul has mind control capabilities over his supporters (Nice job not mentioning the Conway supporter who stomped on a woman's surgical boot and opened her scars)! When you can't find anything to attack the candidate, just attack their supporters who they have no control over, I guess. Even though no-one ever pays attention to Conway supporters, probably because they're so hard to find.

Everyone participating in that fight was a goddamned idiot, and is no true supporter of Paul if they don't believe in the Non-Aggression Principle. Supporters like that should vote for Conway, because they obviously support his view of forcing people to live the way he wants.

Posted by Nadorn85 on October 26, 2010 at 1:22 PM

Re: “Rand Paul's Establishment Opponent Not Ready for 'Prime Time'

Paul's opponent is Jack Conway. Your brand of disrespect lends nothing to informing the voters; it's pure hackery and incitement. Where you there when Paul's fascist thugs stomped on that dang librul outside Paul's apperance yesterday?

Posted by Charleston ExPat on October 26, 2010 at 12:20 PM

Re: “Government Fundamentalists

Cf. Ceramico de Cuyo in Argentina. If it fails, it will have been like many "normal" business enterprises--neither better nor worse.

Great one-liner, Charlestoner.

Posted by pugnax on October 14, 2010 at 8:49 PM

Re: “Government Fundamentalists

What about your blind faith in conservatism?

Posted by charlestoner on October 14, 2010 at 8:19 PM

Re: “Government Fundamentalists

"The capitalist utopia of a "market paradise" is a freakin' myth, dude."

And we're done.

Posted by mat catastrophe on October 5, 2010 at 9:25 PM

Re: “Government Fundamentalists

"No, we don't run our own country. That's not how it's set up. We are a representative republic, wherein we elect representatives to go to Washington to make laws and decide spending and budget issues on our behalf."
Most business aren't run as "representative republics" either, so I don't see how this addresses my point.

"I own my own business, and run it the way I want to run it. That is my prerogative. If you work for me, you will do as I say, or you will find employment elsewhere."

This is one of the favorite arguments of worshipers of the invisible hand. "well, if they don't like it, they're 'free' to patronize other utility companies/seek employment elsewhere. It's freedom baby! Isn't capitalism great!" It's also BS. Sure, if you're a complete asshole as a boss, they're "free" to quit, if they like going to the soup kitchen and being homeless (remember, you can't collect unemployment if you quit your job, no matter how much of a dick you boss is). With no constraints on capital and especially in an economy like this that's the "freedom to choose" we have. Some freedom.

"Are you advocating for workers to dictate the terms of operation to the owners of either privately held or publicly traded businesses?"

Basically. Although there wouldn't be any publicly traded companies, since companies would be owned wholly by the workers. Thanks for at least getting what I'm saying and not claiming that I want all property collectivized in the hands of the central government.

You're completely wrong about who suffers from mismanagement. No matter how badly they screw up, CEO's never end up in a soup kitchen. Let me give one example that's fresh in my mind.
I had dinner with my mother the other day, and she told me about her work (at a golf course).
The management is entirely corrupt and incompetent. they steal from the company (drinking after-hours and the like), are lazy, selfish, and generally stupid assholes. The golf course is losing many thousands. They're looking for ways to save money. How do they do that? It sure as hell isn't by firing the management (the course is managed by bigger company). It's by cutting hours and jobs for the hourly workers. My mom was almost in tears when she talked about how there's several hard-working people who've been with the company for years who are going to lose their jobs (and have already had their hours cut in half) because of mismanagement. What's going to happen to management? Are they going to end up going to be fired and have to work at Wal-Mart? I'd bet you my bottom dollar that they fail upwards-getting promotions if anything.
This is but one example, but I'd like to see anyone challenge the general applicability of it. Look at Carly Fiorina. Named by Conde Nast as one of the 20 worst CEOs of ALL TIME. Did she end up unemployed? Hell no! But a lot of HP employees sure did. What makes it more galling is that she's at leas partially running on her experience as a "businesswoman".


"Armies have a chain of command for a reason. If every buck private had a say in the battle plan, there would be no plan. With higher rank comes higher pay and greater responsibility for the outcomes of more people's survival. Successful businesses operate in exactly the same way.

Why are you unable to grasp such a simple concept?"

Because companies aren't armies. Simple.

"Do you have any practical experience running a large business or working for one? Do you really think Boeing can make more or better airplanes if assembly line workers start organizing everything? The folks who rivet don't know about accounting, procurement, engineering or materials testing; they know riveting. That's not to say they can't learn all those other things and rise to be company president, but the point is, upper management has a different and unique skill set which places a greater responsibility on their decisions, which will ultimately affect every worker in the plant, and the shareholders to boot."
How fucking stupid do you think people are? Don't you think factory workers KNOW they're not accountants? Obviously if the workers were voting they'd vote to hire people with particular skills they needed, and they'd probably even be willing to vote to give those highly skilled people a higher salary. But what salary everyone gets should be decided democratically, not the people at the top choosing their own salary. That'd be like our legislature electing themselves.

"The socialist utopia of a "worker's paradise" is a freakin' myth, dude."

Worker owned and run businesses are empirically not a myth, they exist in this "real world" conservatives love so much. There's hundreds of them in the US, and thousands around the world.
http://usworker.coop/front

One more thing that should be made crystal clear:
conservatives often accuse the left of not trusting people to run their own lives and make their own decisions. They say the left wants an elite to dictate things to the great unwashed masses. As IP has amply demonstrated, this is pure projection. I argued that people's lives revolve around their work, and thus if they don't control their workplace (through strong unions or direct ownership), they can't really be said to control/run their lives (a point that was never challenged). I expressed a belief that this great majority who don't currently run their lives could do so. IP believes that most people are too stupid/lazy to run their own lives and that terms should be dictated to them by an elite that knows better than them whats best. The only difference between him and authoritarian leftists is that he wants this elite to be capitalists, not government officials.

Posted by Sark on October 5, 2010 at 9:17 PM

Re: “Government Fundamentalists

FCB,

Yes, yes. My investments are "recovering" nicely too. I have recovered almost half of what I lost, unlike Goldman Sachs, who have recovered all of their losses and have posted record profits since the spring of 2009. Good thing we bailed them out.

That's like having a pair of speakers STOLEN from you, and then finding one of them in a pawn shop two years later, with a blown tweeter. You still don't have a stereo. Meanwhile, Goldman Sachs got a nice line of credit from us and bought a monster home theater. Nice.

The best part is this: The cops who helped recover some of my property are the same ones who allowed the crime to happen in the first place. Lucky me.

Perhaps I should have less faith in the "cops" (Wall Street/SEC) and more faith in that gun safe full of gold (commodities/real property).

If record deficits concern you, how do you propose to eliminate them when social entitlement spending for SSI, Medicare/Medicaid, and Obamacare will crush us in the coming decades?

The kids are not alright, and they will hold us responsible.

The last official act of any government is to loot its own treasury.

And the printing presses churn on...........





Posted by I P Yuengling on October 5, 2010 at 12:07 PM

Re: “Government Fundamentalists

Actually, IPY, though you may be right, what I see is my investments recovering nicely from the recession, continued low inflation, and work for the top 90%.
Maybe if I was one of the 10% unemployed I would feel differently.
But I kind of like a slow recovery.

But as a centrist, the record deficits do bother me, and they have since Bush cut taxes for the rich and started two unneeded and very expensive wars.
Pretty obviously, Obama and the Democrats have not done anything to improve the situation, although letting the unwise Bush tax cuts expire should help the situation some.

Posted by TROLLSLAYER on October 5, 2010 at 10:19 AM

Re: “Government Fundamentalists

FCB,

"Father IP" declares that sustained ten percent unemployment, record foreclosure rates, monetization of our debt, record deficit spending/borrowing, and looming taxpayer and consumer uncertainty will soon remove the label "theoretical" from our coming depression.

Perhaps then we can refer to it as a "pro" (Pelosi/Reid/Obama) depression instead of a "theoretical" one.

Bush left them with a recession. Their "fixes" are turning it into a depression.

Credit where credit is due, eh?


Posted by I P Yuengling on October 5, 2010 at 12:36 AM

Re: “Government Fundamentalists

Sark,

No, we don't run our own country. That's not how it's set up. We are a representative republic, wherein we elect representatives to go to Washington to make laws and decide spending and budget issues on our behalf.

The fundamental issue which animates the Tea Party is the obvious disconnect between what we want our elected representatives to do, and what they actually are doing.

I agree that workers should be able to run their companies however they wish, provided that they own the company.

I own my own business, and run it the way I want to run it. That is my prerogative. If you work for me, you will do as I say, or you will find employment elsewhere.

Are you advocating for workers to dictate the terms of operation to the owners of either privately held or publicly traded businesses?

That's preposterous.

If I run my business into the ground through poor management, it is I who loses profits, not the worker.

If I keep an inefficient employee on the payroll, it is I who loses profits, not the worker.

If my workers wants to run the business, they are free to purchase it from me, or start one on their own, in direct competition with me. If their model is better, they will flourish and I will perish. That is how a free market works.

Armies have a chain of command for a reason. If every buck private had a say in the battle plan, there would be no plan. With higher rank comes higher pay and greater responsibility for the outcomes of more people's survival. Successful businesses operate in exactly the same way.

Why are you unable to grasp such a simple concept?

Do you have any practical experience running a large business or working for one? Do you really think Boeing can make more or better airplanes if assembly line workers start organizing everything? The folks who rivet don't know about accounting, procurement, engineering or materials testing; they know riveting. That's not to say they can't learn all those other things and rise to be company president, but the point is, upper management has a different and unique skill set which places a greater responsibility on their decisions, which will ultimately affect every worker in the plant, and the shareholders to boot.

The socialist utopia of a "worker's paradise" is a freakin' myth, dude.

If it were a utopia, they wouldn't call it "work". If it was "paradise", there would be no need to do work.

Ask any worker for their definition of the ultimate workers paradise, and they will tell you it is getting paid a lot of money for not doing ANY work at all, or even showing up.

How about those Chrysler guys, members of a union shop no less, whose worker's paradise consists of a few tall boys and a spliff during lunch? That is how your workers would run the shop, unless they owned it. In that case, they would have fired themselves for mucking up safety and productivity.

Are you misguided or misinformed?

Sometimes, it is hard to tell.


Posted by I P Yuengling on October 5, 2010 at 12:00 AM

Re: “Government Fundamentalists

And you're a market fundamentalist Jack, a worshiper at the Church of the Invisible Hand. So around we go.

I'm not so much of a 'government fundamentalist' as I am a 'democracy fundamentalist'. While most people seem to think that workplaces should be run as a dictatorship, I believe workers are capable of running their own lives/companies, without some ivy league 'elite' dictating to them-in the same way that most people (claim) to believe that Americans are capable of running their own country. I'm just more consistent than most.

Posted by Sark on October 4, 2010 at 5:51 PM
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