Oh. So, writing a column that says you can't be too extreme when defending your rights is support for violence, but actually ordering drone strikes that blow people up at weddings isn't? And I'm the one that needs word meanings explained? Hmm. I know what these two words mean: twisted logic.
Paulius, I'm done trying to explain the meaning of words to you.
Mat, re Stalin, Paulius made a weak attempt to tie you to support for Stalin's policies and facetiously called for you to repudiate them. It was a poor attempt at analogy by him and a poor attempt at humor by me.
As far as Malcolm, I think we're on the same page, however I don't happen to agree with him, and believe history proved him wrong. It was not self defense or the threat of self defense that brought about a change in the culture of the 1960s.
Yes, I believe it is our collective responsibility to make sure we do nothing to encourage or legitimize the most fanatical fringes of society who have always been prone toward over-reaction. Unfortunately, some still feel that it serves their political goals to set loose the dogs.
Re Obama's bombing of civilians, that has been a part of warfare for a long time. Dresden and Hiroshima are the classic modern examples of indiscriminate bombing. I find it difficult to categorize drone attacks as support for violence. It's simply war until 2014.
Well, you could have actually posted the next bit from the wikidiki:
"We declare our right on this earth to be a man, to be a human being, to be respected as a human being, to be given the rights of a human being in this society, on this earth, in this day, which we intend to bring into existence by any means necessary."
This is not necessarily a call to violence but it still fits within Malcolm's worldview (at that time) that meeting violence with non-violence was, on the whole, counter-productive.
Most of that, though, was made moot following his break with the NOI and his Hajj. When he returned to the States, he was most definitely changed by his experience overseas and expressed interest in meeting with MLK.
Funny, they both died soon after that, didn't they?
I don't know what you're getting at with Stalin, though.
Now, the funny part is that if we take Malcolm's words above and incorrectly attribute them to Patrick Henry or some other Founding Firebrand, then everyone would stand up and applaud and say, "America, Fuck Yea" and that would be the end of it.
The trick is, and this is something that I think you're trying to get to, that now - over 200 years into our collective history as a nation, we've got to get past not just the violent rhetoric of our past, but also of our present.
Writing you can't be too extreme is NOT a call to violence. It is NOT a call to arms. Also, it is NOT in any way shape or form an excuse to kill people, especially ones that have nothing to do with one's cause (ie OKC). Saying that it is is not only a stretch; it's an insult to the City Paper, because if its editors felt that was an actual call for violence I'm sure they never would've printed it!
But that's not even the biggest stretch you've made. That honor goes to this: "I'm sure it was simply coincidence that this crazy person had a gun and a bunker and picked this time to try to kidnap someone. And it was simply coincidence that I told you this was going to happen 3 weeks ago." Yes, Nostradamus, you really callled that one. Did I miss something? Did the NRA call for kidnapping children to protest gun control?
And you know what's funny? That you, he/she of such righteous indignation against Jack's words, have written the following: "You people make me sick. Which of you on this thread is the next Timothy McVeigh? You are paranoid and delusional and you deserve to be stripped of your rights and waterboarded as home grown terrorists. I hope the Obama administration uses it's Patriot Act powers to hunt you down in the night and whisk you away indefinitely to a secret detention facility in a nameless country. This is a very dangerous and irresponsible fire you guys are building and it needs to be snuffed out."
I guess if some left wing crazy whisks me away to be waterboarded and then snuffed out, we'll all know Fish Pimp's rhetoric is to blame. He hasn't repudiated it yet, so I guess that means he'd support it.
By any means necessary is a translation of a phrase coined by the French intellectual Jean Paul Sartre in his play Dirty Hands. It entered the popular culture through a speech given by Malcolm X in the last year of his life. It is generally considered to leave open all available tactics for the desired ends, including violence; however, the “necessary” qualifier adds a caveat—if violence is not necessary, then presumably, it should not be used.
I personally feel that extremism goes beyond what is necessary by definition. Whatever your feeling, it certainly is much closer to an apt analogy than any of Paulius' other attempts. But maybe you are pro gulag? Should I be calling for you to repudiate Stalin?
"Malcolm X is a much better example of an individual specifically promoting violence to further his agenda."
No, Malcolm X advocated against non-violence in the face of racial discrimination and threats from both public and private sources. I can't recall a single thing about him ever calling for armed revolution, merely that people should be able to defend themselves when the government cannot or will not.
Clearly, you are incapable or unwilling to see any nuance. I understand that you were simply choosing someone on the left an blaming them for the actions of a leftwing nutjob. That's why your analogies suck. I'm not randomly choosing Jack and assigning him blame because he's pro-gun. Malcolm X is a much better example of an individual specifically promoting violence to further his agenda. Of course, it would be much easier to justify his call to arms based on the systematic violence and repression waged on the black community at that time. Gun nuts have no such justification, they are perfectly capable of full participation in the crafting of laws and regulations involving their rights and should not have to resort to violence to achieve their ends.
Again, you are unwilling to see what is clearly written by Jack. I point out that he wrote, CAN NEVER BE TOO EXTREME, and you try to ignore the plain meaning of the words or attribute them to someone else. Now you fall back into your horrible analogies in which to simply link two people on the left and claim it's the same thing as what I've said. You really don't understand how analogies work. At this point I'm wasting my breathe trying to define "inciting violence" to you. I'm sure it was simply coincidence that this crazy person had a gun and a bunker and picked this time to try to kidnap someone. And it was simply coincidence that I told you this was going to happen 3 weeks ago. Just like it was coincidence that the militia groups began attacking federal authorities after Wayne La Pierre called them "jack-booted thugs" in the early 90's. The party of personal responsibility is hardly ever willing to take personal responsibility for anything.
Are you really that literal? I'm using Maddow as an example of someone on the left that disagrees with the FRC on gay marriage. I could've used any number of liberals in the media who disagree with them. I was trying to illustrate a point for you. Don't like Maddow? Take your pick of anyone else; it doesn't matter. Your point is Jack is somehow responsible for what happened in Alabama, and your point is ridiculous. I was trying to show you how ridiculous it is by making the same point about somoene on the left and using the violence at the FRC.
How about this instead? Malcolm X..."by any means necessary"...Black Panther violence. Do you blame their acts on Malcolm X? I certainly don't.
In response to your comment on the other thread (because I don't feel like jumping back and forth anymore), it's you that's putting words in Jack's mouth. A clear call to arms? Seriously? That's not what I read. And, no, it's not up to Jack to repudiate anyone else. Do we call for mat to repudiate Stalin? He probably agrees with him on some things, but I don't foolishly assume mat's pro gulag. Try not taking columns that simply call for less government and protection of gun rights and making a great illogical leap into assuming that's a call for domestic terrorism.
Also, it's another great leap to assume the guy in Alabama's actions were motivated by politics. Seems more like pedophilia to me, but we don't know everything yet. Was the guy some kind of right wing survivalist? Sounds like it, but both sides have thier crazies. Do right wing survivalists regularly kidnap kids for political statments? Nope.
Your analogy is ludicrous. Maddow didn't ever write or say that all tactics used against the FRC were justifiable. Hunter, in contrast, is making the case that these violent tactics (indeed ANY tactics) are justifiable in defense of 2nd amendment rights. Therefore he shares responsibility for the tactics of the most extreme, whereas Maddow does not.
I think we've gotten to the point where we have the same arguments in both threads, so let's just keep it here now.
My point is that you can't take what someone writes and assign blame to them for another's actions. The guy in Alabama...I don't blame what he read on the web or who he listened to on talk radio. I blame him. By the way, he kidnapped a kid. Doesn't the motivation in that seem more likely to be pedophilia, not politics? He didn't go shoot up city hall or kidnap the mayor.
Blaming Jack for what he did would be like blaming Rachel Maddow for Floyd Corkins shooting the guard at the Family Research Council. It's preposterous in both cases.
There are two huge differences there. Hitler achieved his goals because he gained control of the government and expanded it's power (kind of how the Left always wants to see government grow). Also, Hitler called for violence against Jews. Who has Jack called for violence against? He's said not to budge on gun rights, like we shouldn't have budged on 4th Amendment rights. He hasn't called for assassinations of any politicians that promote gun control. I'm sure he'd like to see them voted out, but not killed.
Paulius, certainly you see the fallacy in your logic? I guess we've reached the point of Godwin's Law because I'm compelled to point out that Hitler never personally killed any Jews. How can he be held responsible for the crazed antisemitism that gripped Germany following his speeches that blamed the Jews for all of Germany's ills? I'm not claiming Jack is Hitler....he's more like some low level lackey of Joseph Goebbels. But Jack's point was to encourage the same degree of extremist behavior from paranoid and delusional people. Now that they've taken him up on his suggestion, he cannot claim to be ignorant of the consequences. Of course this rightwing lunatic might not have read Jack Hunter's column. Hunter himself is marginal and irrelevant. But he is part of the right-wing propaganda machine that coordinates and systematically pushes this nonsense (ie the Nazi Party).
Fish, you probably didn't write anything that would make me think that...but a crazed anti-cyclist might've seen it that way. Under the standard you set for Jack, you'd be responsible for whatever action that person took. What has Jack written that leads you to believe he's responsible for someone kidnapping a kid and killing a bus driver? Is Al Gore responsible for the actions of ecoterrorists? Is Christopher Nolan responsible for the Aurora shooting? Are inner city murders the fault of Lil' Boosie?
Paulius, you are so clever! You snared me in a rhetorical trap that I never would have recognized had you not pointed out how clever you were. It's not like there was a looong history of people like Hunter inciting violence on which to base my (now realized) prediction. Please quote anything that I have written about bicycles that made you believe you could never be too extreme in your desire to see them ride on the sidewalk.
You all deserve to sit through this entire thing.
Fish, what makes you think that guy ever even heard of Jack Hunter? Do you have some knowledge you're not sharing? Was he a relative of yours? See what I just did there? It's called speculation.... same thing you did.
Also, do you remember when Joe Riley was talking about putting a bike lane on the Ashley River Bridge? Some of the comments you wrote against that almost made me run down some cyclists. That was a very dangerous game you were playing back then.
And right on que, a man from Midland, Alabama who has been described as an angry anti-government survivalist killed a bus driver and kidnapped a 5 year old boy and held him hostage in his underground bunker for the past 5 days. When will Hunter take responsibility for inciting this behavior? He is an agitator whose sole purpose is to fan the flames of angst and insecurity. His readership is clearly mentally challenged and unable to discern fact from propaganda and therefore susceptible to a paranoid reactionary response. As I've said for the past 3 weeks, this is a very dangerous game that Hunter is playing. Now we're beginning to see the violent consequences of his call to arms.
look what america has generated in the public school system since the 1960's and in our institutions of higher learning . America is failing so fast.
SS is an entitlement, one works for many years to build up their benifit amount that will be given back at retirement. There are requirements to draw SS, i would suggest most read them first. Even when i was in the military we paid SS tax, passed in 1955 by Congress for all Military persons . Medicare is also an entitlement, paid for "Part A "by a tax on each worker while in the work force. Part "B" is paid for out of ones SS check at the clip of about 100.00 a month. There are also requirements for that , read them.
medicaid, SSI, welfare green cards , etc. are not entitlements, people on these programs mostly do not pay for them in a tax or other means , these are government handouts. those on Medicare fund "Medicaid and other programs" that is why Medicare is costing so much, government gives Medicare an IOU each month, but we will never see that money in Medicare. Notice how they always raid Medicare to pay for other healthcare programs like medicaid ? Obama has done this twice already to Medicare to fund his obama care program.
More coming down the road with Big Government, soon all americans will be on some Government program where they will not have to work to get food or care......what a nation that will be !!! Oh ! well
Wow Cutler, that was full of fallacies and mistakes. So we can't learn anything from the past huh? Guess learning in 1920 that reducing the size and scope of government cures recessions faster than government stimulus has no bearing on today's economy, huh? And you might want to know that Jack Hunter opposed the Iraq War and other unconstitutional interventions just like Ron Paul does. And usually, the less the government "gets done" the better. The Citizens United decision is not what has corrupted the government. It is the unconstitutional relationship government has with business that does this. If the government would stay within its constitutional limits, we would not have to fear the government colluding with large corporations. Campaign contributions from corporations are a symptom, not a cause of our political situation.
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