If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
Well, now I understand. Thanks, zee. Real marriage involves children. So all you straight couples that want to marry, you have to vow to have children. If you do not want children or you cannot have children, you are not allowed to marry. Now if we could just make all those gay activists see that, we could just drop the subject. Mindset of a simpleton.
Never mind I take that back. This is a very economic issue related to the business of wedding ceremonies and church charges. There has to he an equal before the law arrangement in all business so gay people getting married in a business such as a church is correct, but that's not the case in denominational "religious" customs(religious communities).
Wow you can almost see how the business side of things can force even an ethnic custom to its knees in the same building!
Life at its best! New trends to be set?
Or is this the monetary devaluement of religion itself?
Well I'm not one to judge anyone seriously unless its a matter of life or death
This isn't marriage. Its gay marriage. I think marriage is something else involving children, and that gay marriage involves property rights and visitation rights.
Still they should be regarded as two seperate things.
I don't know why people are against gay people "marrying" each other, but marriage between a man and a woman is a totally different thing.
Sorry, didn't mean to once again revisit the gay issue....oh that's right that's all this turning to crap paper reports on these days. (No wars)
No news! City paper has fallen! You can keep your paper we only read cause the blotter anyways.
I'm tired of all of this schmoozing and pandering this paper does for ad money, and your ads make Charleston seem like one trashy red light district.
Cp isn't like it used to be...relavent to life...oh well there is still the blotter.
Thank you Pronghorn. I'm glad you know now I wasn't "thumpin" and why I included them.
Sorry, kjenkins; I just saw all the Bible quotes and assumed you were thumpin'.
I know my last comment is obviously not popular here but that is how I see it from my personal perspective. The religious establishment and its interpretation of the scriptures is why the LGBT community faces backlash and opposition to rights and dignity.
I came from a very religious (Methodist) family where we attended church multiple times a week to praise and serve "him". We were involved in lay-preaching, choir, bible-schools, etc. Both my grandmothers, my mother and myself played piano, violin and organ in our churches so the level of dedication from our family was absolute.
Except for one BIG thing. I had to listen to the pastor preach about my abominations and I just had to sit there and take it knowing who I am, but too scared to say anything for fear of rejection. The pastor was not mean about it, but his teachings of this being a mortal sin, etc was hurtful to the very core of my being. I wanted desperately to be someone else to please the church, and more importantly, please my family but I am who I am, by nature, and nothing could (or can) change that. Because pleasing my family was the most important thing I felt I had to do, I engaged in the "normal" pursuits and ultimately married the girl of Mom's and Dad's dreams. Too bad they were not my true dreams and this marriage ultimately failed due to my dishonesty about who I am. I was emotionally forced to engage in a sham marriage to prove to the world I was straight and this led to the destruction of an innocent person's life - my ex's life. To this day, I have still not been honest with her about why our marriage failed.
I never came out to anyone until I met the man of my dreams - someone who loves me because of who I am rather than in spite of who I am. And it was many years after my divorce that I finally came out to my parents. I was 40 at the time and still fearful my family would reject me given their devotion and dedication to the church and its teachings. While they said they still love me and would have to rethink the idea concerning choice, they also told me to never tell anyone in the community - they loved me but I think they were ultimately ashamed they had a gay son and that just could not get out. That part was obviously very hurtful but I understood their viewpoint because that was all they had ever known. May they rest in peace.
The judgment carried thru my entire childhood and into my adult life with the associated bullying, attacks and name-calling. I know we have all heard the "sticks and stones" mantra but to be truthful and honest, when the name-calling comes from family as a result of the churches lessons, it physically hurts. They were not knowingly calling me names, but I was present when discussions turned to gays, and again, I had to listen to the judgment. I, of course, engaged in the same conversation berating gays to hide who I am. And we are steadily bombarded with judgment to this day and no matter how you slice it, the judgment is based purely on all of religion's scriptures and how they are interpreted. The fight for marriage equality just opens up these old wounds where I continue to hear that eternal damnation is why we do not deserve to have any dignity, self-respect or love.
So, in my eyes, religion is responsible for how I am made to feel each and every day of my life.
In reference to "Pronghorn", you can tell the education system was not something you took advantage of.
"freefirezone", my submission was not to justify anything other than contradict the identical scripture someone else was using to try and justify their condemnation of others and show they were using it incorrectly.
I went to the leadership of my "church" asking for help and was kicked out instead of showing compassion and direction. Same happened at 5 other churches. I finally gave up fighting religious people who felt they knew what God was capable of doing. I was not active and only in a companionship relationship now. I still feel you cannot stop anyone from loving who they love.
My goal is not to post anger, bitterness, hurt or judgment towards anyone and if you personally knew me, you would know that. We all need to stop judging others and stop acting as if, what others do with themselves will affect us in some way.
I'll take my civil marriage and you can keep your "biblical" marriage all to yourselves. I, being the discriminatee who BELIEVES civil marriage should be open to ALL couples and, youselves, being the discriminators who BELIEVE marriage should be available only to opposite-sex couples. At this juncture of this maddening struggle for equality, I want NOTHING more to do with the religious establishment which is directly responsible for our plight.
Given the long way you've come (as you describe it) since your days as a minister, your being fired on the spot is understood. It doesn't appear you were struggling at all. More likely, you were looking to shoehorn scripture into your sexual proclivities.
Your interpretation of scripture is a juvenile one. It could be used for any number of sexual dysfunctions. As long as Tiger Woods told his wife he loved all the women he was screwing on the side, who was she or anyone else to object? Scripture simply tells us to love one another. Laughable.
The arguments you make are not relevant to the current debate in any event. Homosexuality is already legal. What is on the table is whether same-sex relationships should be legalized under the category of marriage. You didn't offer any scriptural support of these relationships as you cannot find any. Biblical marriage has no reference to relationships other than a man and a woman.
Why is it that "straight" people use the issue of gay/lesibans having sex. Why does it have to be about sex and why can't it be about love? Honestly?
skrotnik - I totally agree with you and the reason I posted scriptures was to respond to "Charlestonian2" who was using the scripture incorrectly to justify thier invalid scriptural point.
@uninterested: The though of you having sex turns my stomach.
You should therefore not be permitted to legally marry.
Same sex marriage proponents in this state are not doing themselves any favors putting these two hideous monsters on the front page of the paper. Just the thought of them having (sic) sex is enough to turn anyone stomach. Where are all the lipstick lesbians???
I don't know why you people are quoting scripture to justify a legal decision in the United States of America.
How about this quote?
"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion..."
Yeah, I like that one. It's the first part of the First Amendment for a reason.
Leviticus18:22 & 20:13
Christians today do not follow the rules and rituals described in Leviticus. But some ignore its definitions of their own "uncleanness" while quoting Leviticus to condemn "homosexuals." Such abuse of Scripture distorts the Old Testament meaning and denies a New Testament message. "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." These words occur solely in the Holiness Code of Leviticus, a ritual manual for Israel's priests. Their meaning can only be fully appreciated in the historical and cultural context of the ancient Hebrew people. Israel, in a unique place as the chosen people of one God, was to avoid the practices of other peoples and gods.
Hebrew religion, characterized by the revelation of one God, stood in continuous tension with the religion of the surrounding Canaanites who worshipped the multiple gods of fertility cults. Canaanite idol worship, which featured female and male cult prostitution as noted in Deuteronomy 23:17, repeatedly compromised Israel's loyalty to God. The Hebrew word for a male cult prostitute, qadesh, is mistranslated "sodomite" in some versions of the Bible.
What is an "Abomination"?
An abomination is that which God found detestable because it was unclean, disloyal, or unjust. Several Hebrew words were so translated, and the one found in Leviticus, toevah, is usually associated with idolatry, as in Ezekiel, where it occurs numerous times. Given the strong association of toevah with idolatry and the Canaanite religious practice of cult prostitution, the use of toevah regarding male same-sex acts in Leviticus calls into question any conclusion that such condemnation also applies to loving, responsible homosexual relationships.
Rituals and Rules
Rituals and Rules found in the Old Testament were given to preserve the distinctive characteristics of the religion and culture of Israel. But, as stated in Galatians3:22-25, Christians are no longer bound by these Jewish laws. By faith we live in Jesus Christ, not in Leviticus. To be sure, ethical concerns apply to all cultures and peoples in every age. Such concerns were ultimately reflected by Jesus Christ, who said nothing about homosexuality, but a great deal about love, justice, mercy and faith.
Romans 1:26 is the only statement in the Bible with a possible reference to lesbian behavior, although the specific intent of this verse is unclear. Some authors have seen in this passage a reference to women adopting a dominant role in heterosexual relationships. Given the repressive cultural expectations placed on women in Paul's time, such a meaning may be possible.
I will address this one scripture from 1 Corinthians and the others if needed...
In I Corinthians 6:9, Paul condemns those who are "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind," as translated in the King James version. Unfortunately, some new translations are worse, rendering these words "homosexuals." Recent scholarship unmasks the homophobia behind such mistranslations.
The first word - malakos, in the Greek text-which has been translated "effeminate" or "soft," most likely refers to someone who lacks discipline or moral control. The word is used elsewhere in the New Testament but never with reference to sexuality.
The second word, Arsenokoitai, occurs once each in I Corinthians and I Timothy (1:10),but nowhere else in other literature of the period. It is derived from two Greek words, one meaning, "males" and the other "beds", aeuphemism for sexual intercourse. Other Greek words were commonly used to describe homosexual behavior but do not appear here. The larger context of I Corinthians 6 shows Paul extremely concerned with prostitution, so it is very possible he was referring to male prostitutes. But many experts now attempting to translate these words have reached a simple conclusion: their precise meaning is uncertain.
The rarity with which Paul discusses any form of same-sex behavior and the ambiguity in references attributed to him make it extremely unsound to conclude any sure position in the New Testament on homosexuality, especially in the context of loving, responsible relationships. Since any arguments must be made from silence, it is much more reliable to turn to great principles of the Gospel taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. Do not judge others, lest you be judged. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is love . . . against such there is no law.
One thing is abundantly clear, as Paul stated in Galatians 5:14:
"...the whole Law is fulfilled in one statement,
'You shall love your neighbor as yourself".
1 Corinthians 7:2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.
Genesis 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.
Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless ...
Powered by Foundation
© Copyright 2014,
Charleston City Paper