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Saturday, February 13, 2010
Sons of Confederate Vets rep gets pushy over Patriots Point
Posted by Chris Haire on Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 8:46 AM
While the proposed male counterpart to the Statue of Liberty got the majority of the press, the Sons of Confederate Veterans also had a own pet project to pitch to the Patriots Point board. The board is currently looking at ways to give the tourist site a much needed makeover.
Well, evidently, things got a little touchy yesterday, according to a Post and Courier report. OK. Maybe touchy is not the correct word. Pushy, maybe? Judge for yourself. Here's an excerpt:
Patriots Point board Chairman John Hagerty said his agency could not make a decision about the monument when, just hours earlier, it had seen its first glimpse of a master plan for the attraction's 455 acres. The board must take the plan's stakeholders into account, Hagerty said."We need more time," he told the
men. "We well understand that you have your schedule. We need this time between this and our next board meeting to get further data before we make our vote."
When Jeff Antley, a Sons of Confederate Veterans member in charge of finding the memorial's location, asked for a list of those stakeholders, Mount Pleasant Mayor Billy Swails defended Hagerty's point.
"Patriots Point, as we know it, is now hemorrhaging to death, and we've got to do something about it now," Swails said. The attraction cannot not afford to keep its aging warships afloat and its board hopes to find, in this master plan, economic viability.
Antley reminded the board that his group faced a quick timeline, aiming to commemorate the 150th anniversary of the secession convention held in Columbia and Charleston on Dec. 17 and Dec. 20, 1860. He warned the board, "Your body can't obstruct us from moving on, either."
Swails encouraged the Sons of Confederate Veterans to plan for a future at Patriots Point without committing to it outright.
"I can't tell you to raise the money, but if I were in your position, I'd start raising the money," he said.
Interesting quote from Swails at the end. Even more interesting is another item later in the report: Both Sen. Robert Ford and state Rep. Tim Scott, who's eying Henry Brown's 1st Congressional District seat, signed a letter approving the project. Interesting.
In a only-sorta-related matter, I think it's time I finally got around to seeing if I can join the SCV. I know some Haires fought, but I think the safer bet could be with the Barnwells. I'll get back to you when I find out.
Comments (14)
Showing 1-14 of 14
"He warned the board, "Your body can't obstruct us from moving on, either." What a cornaball maroon. I wouldn't be pushed into a quick decision like that,either.
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Lets set the record straight!
#1 I asked who the "steak holders" were so that I could communicate the facts of the proposal to them directly.
#2 I "warned" no one. I conveied that our time line directed us to procure a sight asap. There was no warning.
#3 I did not say " Your body can't obstruct us from moving on either" That is a LIE.
I said that we needed an answer one way or the other so we could seek another site as to meet our time schedule.
I am very disappointed in the lazy reporting and trying to put argument into a meeting that had absolutley none. No one called me to verify of confirm these statements.
I think that reporting what happened may not have been juicy enough and " adding to" was the solution
Jeff Antley
A visit to Patriots Point gives the distinct impression of honoring patriots of the United States of America. I'm trying to find credence in the Sons of Confederate Veterans proposal for a memorial at Patriots Point. For the record, Patriots Point is a State of South Carolina agency. It is, by law, self-sustaining and uses United States of America currency in so doing.
I have searched www.patriotspoint.org for a mission definition. Patriots Point executive director Brigadier General Hugh B. Tant III, USA (Retired) is quoted as saying “Our mission is to promote patriotism, honor, and character by telling the stories of these ships and the heroes that served on them." There can be no argument that USS Yortown, USS Laffey and USS Clamagore are ships of the United States of America.
Confederate veterans fought AGAINST the United States of America. Yet, their decendants want them honored next to memorials to United States of America patriots. I say go nail your memorial on the wall of the warehouse where the CSS Hunley resides.
If there were something to honor the thousands of confederate deserters who had no say in secession and chose to vote with their feet by returning home to the upcountry, and the tens of thousands of enslaved people who undermined the war effort by slowing production, serving as spies for the union, running away, and joining the union to preserve the nation that would seem to make for a more appropriate marker for Patriots Point. Do we really need one more commemorative marker to what amounted to the dumbest and most destructive idea in American history?
Guy and Mario Delgado need a history lesson. I laugh when people confuse feelings with historical facts. Have a nice day guys, but educate yourselves before posting what amounts to PC Propaganda. Supporter of the WBTS or the War For Southern Independence. (no dif than the Revolutionary War do you curse their memory?)
We are talking about the United States of America are we not?
All States had representation in Congress and each State had a constitution that recognized the Constitution of the United States as that of a higher political unit which makes the people and States which compose them one people and one country. No such understanding existed between the British Empire and the American Colonies.
Since Great Britain had and still has an UNWRITTEN constitution and no institution has a final say in resolving constitutional disputes both sides were necessarily arguing bad law. Each side therefore had to weigh the risk of pressing its argument to the brink.
The Revolutionary Patriots and Founding Fathers declared independence. Secession ordinances ratified by the various State legislatures threw off their allegiance to the Constitution and government of the United States.
The US Constitution established the Supreme Court and its judicial power extends to all cases under the Constitution and the laws of the United States. Regarding secession ordinances the Court has ruled them to be "utterly without operation in law." Further, the Court ruled the "seceeding" States did not cease to be States or their citizens cease to be citizens of the Union.
In other words, those confederates warring against the Union for southern independence, were in fact, waging a war for conquest of the Union. Hence an act of treason as defined in Article III, Section 3 of the US Constitution.
Conclusion: your confederate patriots were traitors; the States were not.
The Emancipation Proclamation did not free all slaves. It freed slaves only in the (so called) States in Rebellion.
Did the Southern States Declare independence from the North? Read my ill informed friend. Your arguments of Constitution are mute. When a group of people or a segment of a country decide to secede isn't it obvious they reject the former governments authority over them? Read my ill informed friend.
http://www.hqudc.org/about/wbts.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops…
In conclusion:
Waging war for Conquest of the Union? I've never heard that version of history.
Did the British claim the Patriots of 1776 were traitors?
Did the thoughts of the British Parliament Really Mean anything to those fighting for independence from the British Gov?
Your assertion that the South Invaded the North for Conquest is gullible at best, and influenced by revisionist history at worst. (read my friend read)
Here's a little tidbit for you that you probably didn't know. The Emancipation Proclamation did not free all slaves. It freed slaves only in the (so called) States in Rebellion. Just thought I would throw that in for educational purposes since not many people read for themselves.
I think that your arguments have more to do with personal attitude than that of Historical accuracy. It's my belief that your Delusions of Grandeur of being somehow smarter and more intelligent than some poor ole barefoot Southerner. Just a guess, but I'll bet your genes hail from above the Mason Dixon Line, but your behind is down here in the good ole South. Damned if I would live somewhere that I felt so strongly against their heritage. I Practice what I preach. I would never live in the North. They instituted the practice of Slavery. The American Flag is a symbol of Slavery, and was used by the KKK along with the Christian Battle Flag long before they Hijacked the the Confederate Flag in more recent times. Therefore I choose not to live in the North. I just wish those from the North had my Convictions.
Now please excuse my sentence structrue etc. This was written early in the morning and I'm on my way out to educate your children in the public school system.
Hey teech (ken29204)
You questioned my statement regarding "conquest of the Union". For clarification (since your comprehension of what you read is very shallow) let me add that IF the Constitution of the United States gave States the right to secede then said States would become foreign and their citizens foreigners. The point you missed was the Constitution of the United States does not allow for secession. The link you provided to The United Daughters of the Confederacy supports the notion that said confederacy was a separate nation (read foreign nation).
You asked "Did the British claim the Patriots of 1776 were traitors?" My answer is yes, treason was defined as acting against the king which is exactly what they did.
You asked "Did the Southern States Declare independence from the North?" My statement was "Secession ordinances ratified by the various State legislatures threw off their allegiance to the Constitution and government of the United States."
Being a product of southern education that heretofore has not considered literacy to be important you probably missed that point. Don't forget to emphasize comprehension in your literacy programs.
At this point in our discourse your introduction of the Emancipation Proclamation is not pertinent. You're correct that only southern slaves were freed. But that only lasted until December 18, 1865, when the Thirteenth Amendment was enacted.
The final rule of war is to the victor go the spoils and the power to make decisions regarding the vanquished.
As for your diatribe on my heritage, slavery, the KKK, and where you choose to live I suggest you make sure your mind is engaged before committing such foolishness in writing.
I don’t consider myself to be from the North or the South. I am an American and my convictions lie with the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States of America as amended.
Just recently, it was heartening to read that our local government schools have decided that literacy is important. What have you been teaching them up to now--Northerners bad, Southerners good?
I noted your apology for sentence structure, etc. No matter, since sentence structure and spelling are considered integral to literacy and you have been taught and are teaching in southern government schools, you have an excuse. Nice going teech. Set the bar lower for your students why don't you.
"Read my friend read." Might I add “and learn.”
By the way, thanks for admitting that I am smarter and more intelligent than your barefoot self.
Guy(29455)
Your "barefoot self" comment at the end of answering Ken only shows your ignorance and your stereotypical thinking of Southern historical heritage Guy.
It also totally makes any so-called point you made irrelevant...which it was in the first place.
In 1905 when President Theodore Roosevelt (who was I might add a Yankee from New York) signed the order returning the captured Confederate flags to the Southern States...that was the first step toward the reunification that President Abraham Lincoln wanted when he said "with malice toward none, and with charity toward all".
In 1952 the Congress of the United States, and President Dwight D. Eisenhower formally recognized Confederate soldiers and servicemen AS AMERICAN SOLDIERS! In effect pardoning them forever from any so-called treason.
Oh and lets not forget that the US Department of Veterans Affairs to this day continues to fill orders to the Sons of Confederate Veterans for grave markers and headstones to go for said Confederate service men.
Oh and lets not forget that every Memorial Day, the US President places a wreath at the gravesites of Confederate servicemen in Arlington National Cemetery....yes including President Obama!
If the US government itself does not consider former Confederates "traitors" then who in the blue hadies are you to call them that?!
Something y'all might want to consider, when talking about secession, is that it was a New England concept. Three times, prior to the War for Southern Independence, the New England states threatened to secede from the Union. The first time was after the Louisiana Purchase in 1803. The second time was during the War of 1812, when they were upset that "Mr. Madison's War" was interfering with their commerce with Britain, with whom we were at war and whose troops had just burned the White House (Typical Yankee mentality, profit before principal.) The third time the Yankees made threats to secede was during the annexation of Texas. Funny, how when the Yankee's contemplated secession they deemed it to be their prerogative. Yet, when the Southern States attempted it, they labeled it an act of treason and made war upon them.
In 1832, South Carolina was involved in the Nullification Crisis that resulted from the Tariff of Abominations. The tariff, a tax on imports, was traditionally between 15 and 20%. The tariff of abominations sought to incrementally raise the rate to over 40%. A compromise was reached which lowered the tariff back to its previous level. In 1860, the Morrill Tariff was enacted and it was set to eventually raise the import tax to 50%. Approximately 90% of the Federal Governments budget was derived from this source of revenue and the South paid a disproportionate share of somewhere in the neighborhood of 85% of the burden. However, this money was used to enhance Northern infrastructure; dredging canals, building bridges and laying railroad track. The South had two choices: buy imports and pay the tax or buy New England manufactured goods. Either way, their money was going North without equitable reciprocation. This was the reason that Lincoln insisted on maintaining garrisons at Fort Sumter and other Southern ports; to control the shipping and collect the customs duties.
If you neophytes want to get into Lincoln, Abolitionism, Colonization, Free Soil or any other topics of heated debate, SAY THE WORD! and I will assist you in understanding the war in ways that you have never had the opportunity to grasp from P.B.S. or your High School History class.
Hey Chesterboy;
Read the whole thread and you will notice ken29404 referring to himself, or possibly all southeners in general, as barefoot.
All of the references you site in an attempt to forgive treasonous behavior are invalid. I see no reference to any pardon for trason. Of course, all Confederate soldiers were Americans.
Article III, Section 3.(I) of the Constitution of the Confederate States of America states, in part "Treason against the Confederate States shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." Almost word for word from the Constitution of the United States of America. There can be no dispute that treason was committed.
The bottom line is that "Guy" is right. The Acts of Succession of the various states that lead to the Civil War were acts of treason. Those who fought Federal troops were committing acts of treason. The southern states tried to leave the United States in order to continue the practice of slavery - that was the main issue! Any other argument or excuse is just eyewash.
Longwalker...you are sadly mistaken if you believe that the Civil War was strickly fought over slavery. Go check out a few "real history" books from you library instead of listening to the crap that is coming out of those who wish to continue to divide.
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